(no subject)

[castalie]

The SG fandom apparently has big issues with nicknames! I think it's a little ridiculous, but usually it also seems I'm part of the minority in thinking that way.

So now Jack calling Daniel my archaeologist was also about to become an issue? *sigh* It's too bad my mail got eaten by yahoo, but I was really glad - and a tad surprised - to see people telling the girl that it was presumptuous of her - and a little stupid - to get all riled up and haughty about that kind of thing. I don't remember who it was, but someone sent a post that sounded a lot like the one I'd written. It's all a matter of taste, and one shouldn't start to criticise - if you hate something, well it's all right because we all have our likes and dislikes in fics, but you just have to use the delete key, and it's over. Is it too difficult to understand? *ponders*

Speaking of nicknames and the likes - am a little jealous of those who are into Without a Trace. From what I read on LJ, one of the characters is called Danny and oddly enough, nobody has a problem with it, and no one ever implied this nickname made him a wimpy and childish character. Lucky WoT fans! lol

Comments

[ashism.livejournal.com]

God, I love WaT so much. Danny and Martin in particular.

So many pretty boys, so little time.

[ashism.livejournal.com]

And I just imagined calling WaT!Danny 'Daniel' and laughed out loud. I'm easily amused obviously. It would just never ever happen. In contrast, calling SG!Daniel 'Danny' has been done on occasion, I just don't think it suits him. Just like Jack is Jack and not Jonathon, and how Teal'c should keep his full name and step away from the 'T'.

That being said of course, if the SG writers weren't so strict from the beginning about calling their characters particular things and not going anywhere near nicknames (except Jack calling Daniel spacemonkey and the like) then maybe the stick up the SG fandom's ass wouldn't be half so big as it is.

But the SG fandom has a stick up its ass about everything ::shrug:: :D

[castalie.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly- that's where the problem comes from. See, I don't mind people thinking Jack wouldn't ever call Daniel Danny, I don't mind people thinking Daniel would smack Jack on the head if he were to call him that way, I get all that- once again, it's a matter of having different tastes, and thank God we're not all thinking the same thing. I don't agree myself, obviously, because I really like this 'Danny' thing (from time to time, here and there- not all the time, granted) *g*

But what I don't get, what I really hate in that fandom is how you practically have to *justify* yourself when you're explaining you like nicknames or endearments between the guys. I mean, if you dare imply something like this, be prepared to receive tons of mails telling you how stupid you are and how Jack and Daniel wouldn't ever do that, and how you suck as a SG fan.

Please, what a load of BS!

It came to the point that when Jack calls Daniel babe, just once in a fic, I'm getting high! lol I don't want the boys to start calling each other Danny and Jackie and Sweetheart and honey and cuddlebug, I never wanted that in the fandom, thank you very much, but some nicknames would be so nice- because to me, they show a real intimacy between people. I really miss that- although, fortunately, I still get my Danny in fics *g*

[ashism.livejournal.com]

This is one of the reasons I love the Jossverse - nicknames abound! In SG I don't like it so much (unless it's a possessive - 'my archaeologist' or 'my colonel' etc, but that kinda leads into my whole kink about alpha's and subs...) lol, but anyway. The nickname thing is just another reason for this fandom to rant about something.

If some of them aren't flaming people they aren't happy, which is why I hate a lot of the SG fandom with a passion (and I survived the X-Files fandom, which is saying a lot). Bunch of bored antagonists with nothing better to do is all they are.

I'm perfectly happy now in my little corner of the SG online world and can choose who I do or do not interact with :D

[castalie.livejournal.com]

I think I really started to hear about that fandom in your LJ as a matter of fact *g* I was glad to realize Eric Close was part of the cast, I really like him.

Also, you even got me curious in Danny/Martin slash! lol I tried some fics, but it's never really the same when you never watched the show, know what I mean? Still, I definitely think I could get into a) that show b) that fandom and c) that pairing lol

[ashism.livejournal.com]

lol! Yay! For fics you should go read anything ever written by nekosmuse. Hot shit, dude. I know what you mean though, I can't read fics if I don't know the characters.

Lowdown - FBI, pretty boys, pretty hot, Danny=cuban and soft on the inside, tough on the outside, Martin=straight up all-American guy with a powerful dad, newbie at missing persons. Oh and they're in total love. Now go, read!! ;)

[castalie.livejournal.com]

*salutes* Yes Ma'am! Thanks for the link *g* I'll be sure to check them out *g*

And I really hope the show will air here one of these days! *crosses fingers*

[ashism.livejournal.com]

Hee, yay!

We're only just getting S1 here but the DVD's come out in August and I'm downloading S2 or else I'd go insane :D

[castalie.livejournal.com]

Every show under the sun is being released on DVD *but* The Sentinel, it's so not fair!

And to me, you're the Downloading Queen! lol

[ashism.livejournal.com]

lol! Now that's a nickname I haven't heard before! :D

They're only just releasing Roswell S1 on DVD but we really had to fight for that, maybe if you wrote in and asked if there was any ETA on the DVDs?

[castalie.livejournal.com]

I told you, I love nicknames lol

And there were campaigns asking for TS on DVDs, and at one point we started to have hope, but here we are, in 2004 and still nothing in sight *sigh* It's such a pity, really.

[ashism.livejournal.com]

That's a shame :(

[circeoflatium.livejournal.com]

Pleaseeeeeeeeeeee tell me where you're d/l series 2 from. Pleassssssssseeeeeeeeee...xxx

[ashism.livejournal.com]

www.torrentz.com

[whitevanilla.livejournal.com]

To comment complete off the topic of SG nicknames..

I was wondering if you'd be so kind as to translate this for me:

I am nobody's little weasel.

Of course it's from Amelie! ;) Anyway, I wanted to put it on a t-shirt, to yoink the idea from a current post in _amelie. I just wanted it to be correct! Thanks a bunch. :D

[castalie.livejournal.com]

Sure, no problem *g*

First, if I were to translate that literally, it would be Je suis la petite belette de personne, but in the French version what Amélie says is Je suis la belette de personne, without little *g*

[whitevanilla.livejournal.com]

Awesome. Thanks! That's what I was thinking it was, but I thought I should ask. I didn't want to be walking around with it incorrectly written on my shirt.

[castalie.livejournal.com]

You're welcome *g*

Btw, about l'université de Caen. I suppose you have tons of information about it already, but did you go to the official site? Do you have all the info you need?

[whitevanilla.livejournal.com]

I won't be going to France until my junior in college, so I've got about a year and a half to get it all together. But yeah, I've gone to the offical site and all that jazz. It looks pretty awesome! Hopefully you'll still be around Paris and we can hang out! That would be pretty neat.

[castalie.livejournal.com]

Well Caen isn't exactly Paris or the suburb, but it sure would be closer than where you are now, anyway lol And I don't plan on leaving Choisy or the suburb, so you should find me here *g*

[whitevanilla.livejournal.com]

I'm used to travel for a few hours so a trip to Paris would definitely be cool.

[castalie.livejournal.com]

It's true that coming from the states, Caen could actually be considered as real close to Paris anyway *g* I mean, we don't have the same sense of distance. And going to Paris would be a must do *g

[whitevanilla.livejournal.com]

Of course. I live in the middle of nowhere, so a short trip could be an hour or two. For me to get to the city where my university is, it takes 4 hours. Not too bad, but that's pushing it. But I like to travel, so a few hours in a car isn't a problem for me.

[nicci-mac.livejournal.com]

I'm with you, I love to hear Jack call Daniel Babe or sometimes baby. Not all the time, just every now and then when the situation warrants such tenderness. I also like hearing him use 'Danny'.

One thing that you never hear, is Daniel calling Jack Babe? I dont know, would that be totally out of character? See, we know that Jack does use that word becuase he called Sarah Baby in Cold Lazarus.

See, this is why I love Jim/Blair. Jim gets to call Blair the coolest things and no-one gives a shit. Love that.

[castalie.livejournal.com]

As they say, word word and word!

Hearing Jack call Daniel babe or even baby *when* the situation warrants it a definitely a kink of mine *g*

And about Jack calling Sarah baby in Cold Lazarus, that's usually my defense when people tell me it's so completely OOC for him. It's not, we did hear him use it for his ex-wife, he *would* use that kind of endearment. Not always, sure, but he would, when in the right mood *g*

And thank God for TS, indeed, because that's one of the many reasons why I love the fandom so much. It never bothers anyone to hear Jim -or Blair- call Blair baby or babe, and it's even the norm. Love that love that love that *g*

[crystalskull.livejournal.com]

We rule, canon Danny!

[castalie.livejournal.com]

You sure do, am so jealous *pout*

And did you write new Martin/Danny btw?

[crystalskull.livejournal.com]

In the process, my muse wants to write some Stargate. I joined a fic contest and it was a Stargate icon I had to write about.

[alinewrites.livejournal.com]

I think there's another thing about nicknames: you're talking about Daniel, here and Daniel's cute, Daniel's sweet, Daniel's got a brain, and blue eyes and he's what... 15 years younger than Jack? And we read -well I sure do- fics where he bottoms a lot? I guess Danny's a bit too much; I can see Jack calling him Danny to yank his chain, tease him but in the heat of passion, I doubt he'd call him that way. Would be a bit too much big brother like, I guess. Maybe that's why people don't like it?

But hey, I come from a fandom where nicknames aren't so often used. You just picture Keller calling Beecher "honey" and you get the thing.

[castalie.livejournal.com]

SG writers and readers give too much power to the nickname, it's just a fucking nickname- lot of people are called by their nicknames without being portrayed as weak or wimpy in fandoms and elsewhere. It's never an issue anywhere else, why in SG? It seems Daniel isn't strong enough in *their* eyes to be able to be called Danny *shrug* I don't have that problem lol

I definitely don't get it. I never will. A nickname shows intimacy to me, and yes, I'll keep on loving Jack calling Daniel Danny. I don't mind people hating it, that's not the problem, of course *g* I do mind people telling me it's stupid though- and that's the problem with SG. You're not allowed to use nicknames of like them- how more stupid can it get, really?

Yeah, but I often see Keller call Toby baby, it doesn't seem to bother anyone, right? Or it's well hidden, because I sure see that a lot in Oz slash, and I'm definitely glad *g*

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I guess I'm going to be in the minority here, but let me try to explain my position. Personally, I don't like excessive use of nicknames in SG fic. I don't really like possessives, either, unless the situation specifically calls for it. For example: Jack talks to other SG team leaders about "his" archaeologist, or to a close friend about "his" lover. But it makes no sense for Jack to call Daniel "his" archaeologist to someone who doesn't give a damn about Daniel's occupation -- especially when the situation doesn't even have anything to do with archaeology (ie the boys are fishing and nary an artefact is in sight). It's all about context.

Now, if a fic has Jack using possessives just in his head, I won't bother to call it OOC -- Jack can be a little possessive -- but I will roll my eyes if it's overdone. Same with nicknames. I like "Danny" once in a while, but "Spacemonkey" is very overdone. A good writer might be able to make me swallow it, but I've found very few fics that do it well.

Perhaps it would've been more diplomatic if that poster (Cynthia?) hadn't voiced her criticism so soon after devra posted her fic, but there's nothing wrong with her saying she disliked "my archaeologist", is there? And asking for other people's opinions? Because you're right -- it is a matter of taste. And taste determines what one considers "good writing" versus "bad writing". Give me a Jack that is over-the-top and out-of-character, and I'll call it bad writing. And if part of what I think makes Jack OOC is his gratuitous use of endearments, I'm obviously not going to think the writing is any good.

Now, having said all this... Obviously the code of behaviour for feedback is that we never call anything "bad writing". One person's badfic is another person's creative masterpiece. But I suppose the issue of how fanfic critiques and feedback should be handled is a huge monster of a kerfuffle waiting to happen, and I'd better leave it alone for now ;)

As a side note, I love intimacy between Jack and Daniel (and intimacy being more than just hot sex) so I understand why nicknames are so popular with writers. But there are ways to infuse a sense of intimacy into a story without nicknames becoming a short-cut. Again, JMHO :) As for specific nicknames:

Stargate SG-1 - I like "Danny", and other ordinary guy-type names like "Hot-Shot" or "Buddy", Daniel calling Jack "my fearless leader" or Jack calling Daniel "evil mastermind" (okay, I just made those up, but you can see how they work). Even a rare "Geek" is okay. But "Spacemonkey" and "Plant-Boy" were both context-specific nicknames that don't hold up well upon repeated use.
The Sentinel - Overuse of "my little guppy" is like "Spacemonkey": the first use was context specific, so unless the guys are fishing again, and remembering that first incident, I don't see Jim using "Guppy" on a regular basis.

"Babe" and "baby" are clearly beloved by both the SG and TS fandom. Personally, I hate "babe". That's just me, though -- I find the word very derogatory, so slick and condescending, and not the least bit cute. "Baby" is almost as bad, but can be cute if the author invokes the right intimate, comforting atmosphere. But again, this is just my personal taste.

[castalie.livejournal.com]

I don't think you're in the minority. I mean, looking at this thread, it might look like it, but overall, I'm under the impression that lots of Gaters (if we focus on SG of course) agree with you. And even if you were the only one to think that way, I would still enjoy reading your input *g*

I'm afraid I'm going to repeat myself, so I won't go into details, but obviously, I enjoy nicknames. This said, I wouldn't want Jack to call Daniel plant-boy or geek as endearment. Like you said, usually Jack's canon nicknames for Daniel are used in a certain context. Should I hear Jack call Daniel Danny all the time, I would find it tiresome, should he call Daniel baby all the time, I would feel the same way. There's this series where Jack calls Daniel my angel or angel and I just can't get into it (well, this particular writer writes --IMHO-- the grand-mother of OOC but she has her readers, and I have nothing against it- as long as I don't have to read her work *g*), but some Danny here and there, and like I said, some babe or baby and I just love it *g* I don't have any negative connotations about those particular endearments, I never equalled any kind of endearment or nickname as a sign of weakness (well, depending on the situation, of course) --CL or RL-- so that might be why, but the thing is, I really enjoy reading it *g*

I get enough of those in TS- not enough in SG, but that's one of this fandom's quirk, so I have to accept it *g*

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

I'm under the impression that lots of Gaters (if we focus on SG of course) agree with you.

Really? From all the fic I've seen, I would've thought that most Gaters preferred nicknames, that endearments were the norm. I've only seen those who consider themselves more "serious" writers frown on nicknames.

And even if you were the only one to think that way, I would still enjoy reading your input *g*

Aww, thank you! I love reading your opinions too! You always have cool things to say.

Should I hear Jack call Daniel "Danny" all the time, I would find it tiresome, should he call Daniel "baby" all the time, I would feel the same way.

Yes, I think it's much the same for me. Excessive use of any word can be annoying. I still don't like "babe" though, I'm afraid! Even when I know it's being used in a positive way, I cringe at the word. The only fic (can't remember the name) that's made me understand its appeal is a TS fic in which Blair recognises Jim calling him "babe" is like a trucker who calls his truck "babe". It's about being able to depend on it, this trusty sidekick. It's very much an American, blue-collar, working man's endearment. At least, that's how I interpreted it, and about the only way I can swallow "babe" as an endearment.

I don't see endearments as signs of weakness (usually), but I'm Chinese and my friends and family very rarely use endearments, just silly nicknames/insults (like my mom calling my sister "piglet" in Chinese). We don't do things like use "honey" or "baby" or "sweetheart". So it might be a cultural thing too. I think most of my friends would say such endearments are too sickly-sweet and cutesy.

[castalie.livejournal.com]

It's weird indeed, because when you hear all those conversations on MLs (or on some LJs) it seems the preferences run toward no.nickname.for.the.love.of.God- or just for.the.love.of.Jack.and.Daniel.

I'm definitely glad this dislike of nicknames is more visible on discussions than on fics per se, because I would be a sad little camper otherwise lol

Aww, thank you! I love reading your opinions too! You always have cool things to say.

Thank *you* for that- to tell the truth, I don't think I really use all my brain when I'm writing my entries! lol Not that I think my posts are stupid, mind you, I just think they're on the lighter side of the road *g* Some users post meta discussions all the time, and I'm just happy with being your typical fangirl so that's nice of you to say, and nice to hear *g*

Yes, I think we just sort of bring our upbringing and our beliefs in the fics we read --or write. I hear endearments all the time. People use them easily around me, within the family or with my friends, so it's something that seem more natural to me. Therefore, it seems natural for me to hear them in fics.

Here again, I pay attention to characterization and/or the frequency of said endearments and nicknames of course, because like we said, used too much they just sound silly- I have this opinion IRL too- my cousin and his girlfriend *never* use their real names when they talk to each other and *always* call one other bébé and ma puce, and I just think it sounds stupid. It works for them, not for me *g* Besides, at one point, the endearment loses its meaning to me- if you use it all the time, it becomes a name like any other- here again, just my opinion of course *g*

[nyxmidnight]

I dunno... "Danny" won't stop me from reading (unless it's overdone), but I won't use it myself. I heard Jack use it once in canon in a pretty condescending tone, so...

'sides, I think "Dan" is a more logical nickname :P

[castalie.livejournal.com]

Likewise, no Danny won't stop me from reading lol I just like it and have no problem with it- even crave it- in case it wasn't obvious from my post lol

What gets to me is this whole You Shall Not Call Him Danny going on in the fandom *pout*

I'd like to see the fandom be more relaxed on the issue- well, I'd like the whole nickname thing not to be an issue anymore to be exact lol

[wisdomeagle]

Hey, I've got a question: what (if anything) will make you stop reading a fic? Just curious.

[castalie.livejournal.com]

Hmm, well that's a tough one, actually. I mean, okay, usually I won't start to read a fic when I know it won't be to my liking- like fics with Jack Whumping --I'm really all for Daniel Whumping-- for instance, or fics that portray a bastard!Blair- I love bastard!Jim but not bastard!Blair... I also tend to stay away from humor because I love angst so much.

I'll stop reading a fic when I realize the characterization is totally OOC. There were fics like this where the synopsis sounded interesting but the characters were strangers to me. Also, sometime ago I read a rape story that had a ridiculously ending with Blair being gang raped one day and ready to have sex with Jim the day *after*, with apparently no problem whatsoever with being touched intimately, and happy to have Jim jump his bones. It was as if the rape was actually the only pretext for Blair and Jim to get together...

And when I'm really shallow, I'll stop reading when I realize I'm dealing with top!Daniel or even worse (for *me*, that is) dom!Daniel and bottom!Jack or sub!Jack. Okay so I'm exaggerating about stopping the fic if Jack is being fucked by Daniel, that's not really true. I just get disappointed lol But it's true that I can't get into a story when the dynamic is dom!Daniel and sub!Jack. It doesn't work for me that way *shrug*

[ninkasa.livejournal.com]

There's also a Sam and a Jack on WaT too. :)

I never had a problem with nicknames in SG fandom. I have problems with nicknames in QaF fandom. . .but that depends on the nickname. . .

[castalie.livejournal.com]

I know, you wouldn't believe how confused I was the first times I started to hear about this new show lol

I mean, to start with I didn't know they were talking about a *new* show, and I didn't understand what the hell they were all talking about, and I was starting to think some people were going insane *shakes head*

[slb44.livejournal.com]

First up, forgive me for playing on LJ instead of responding to your email. First thing in the morning, okay? Good.

Now onto the subject of nicknames in SG fandom. I think there's a heck of a lot more going on here then just a response to OOC use of nicknames.

First off, I think part of the problem in SG fandom and it's reaction to the use of nicknames/endearments is actually a response to the 'pinking' of the fandom. You know what I mean. The stories where Jack and Daniel are so damn gay they just can't hide it and they end up married in the gateroom, with children or beagles and Thor forces the president to accept their gayness or else. For someone like me, who is a real canon whore, and who knows what the reality of the US military's "don't ask, don't tell" rule actually means, the total disregard for the facts just throws me for a loop. Originally I was able to read this stuff and laugh. Then it became bad!fic which I avoided except to point and make fun off. Finally it became a glaring sore on the face of a fandom I really, truly love. Since the fic in question is often over flowing with endearments and nicknames, I've developed a severe aversion to them.

Secondly, there is the question of epithets. I have a serious problem with writers using epithets as a means of introducing variety into their story. You know what I mean. Instead of using "Daniel said" and "he yelled" in a fic they feel compelled to come up with a variety of epithets to use to keep the conversation labeled appropriately. I'll admit that writing dialog in slash fic is extra difficult since you're dealing with two individuals of the same sex. Nevertheless it's merely sloppy writing that demands the use of epithets or repeated "Daniel said" to clarify who is speaking. It takes a bit of effort to do it properly, but it is so worth it.

In SG in particular the epithet has been raised to a high art. I blame this on canon in part because Jack has so many damn nicknames for Daniel it's very easy for a writer to fall unwittingly into the epithet trap. The thing is, as you've said yourself, the nicknames Jack uses are very much specific to the circumstances and don't carry over into Jack and Daniel's real life very well. I can live with Jack referring to Daniel as his Spacemonkey once in a fic, more then that and I'll delete it.

As for endearments between the guys, well that's situational and very much tied to the mores of the society they've been raised in. While we've seen Jack in canon call Sara 'babe' I'm not sure Daniel would stand for it. Of course, Daniel's dislike of being called 'babe' would probably incline Jack to use it just to arouse an irritated response. Which would naturally lead to other things as passions heated up. ;-) On the other hand I have a hard time imagining Jack using the same endearment he used for his wife, whom he did indeed love very much, I'm convinced, and for Daniel. That just doesn't feel right to me.

In closing, to get back to the comment that started this discussion in the first place, I can live with Jack possessively referring to Daniel as "my archaeologist" once or twice in a fic. What I can't live with is "my archaeologist said." Unfortunately there's a lot of the later in SG fic and it totally destroys the 'feel' of a story for me. We all know that Daniel is an archaeologist. We all know that Daniel is Jack's archaeologist, among other things. We don't need to be reminded of that fact every other time Daniel speaks in a story.

[castalie.livejournal.com]

But I don't think we should take for reference what I see as bad!fic as well. The Jack-and-Daniel-have beagles-and-Daniel-gets-hysterical-if-he-thinks-his girls-are-going-to-feel-alone-if-they-go-away shouldn't become the reference, and indeed the endearments and other epithets used in that kind of fics are just... well, they're so unbelievable for anyone who's into good characterization that they don't even belong to the same galaxy.

I'm not talking about overuse of endearment, nicknames, of course *g* I just want a subtle dosage of them.

Also, the bottom line is, there's no way of saying Jack would or wouldn't call Daniel babe or Danny, likewise there's no way of saying Daniel would hate or like being called that way. For instance, you say that even though we see Jack call Sarah baby in Cold Lazarus, it doesn't mean he would do the same with Daniel, well I use it as a way to think that since Jack *did* use an endearment to address if *ex*-wife whom he loved dearly indeed, it means that he would be inclined to use them with Daniel as well- not all the time, granted, but in bed or during particular tender moments with them.

It's just a matter of interpretation, we bring our own personal choices or 'beliefs' in that issue, and it's fine, I mean, it's pretty normal. I don't have a problem with that. I just don't like this sort of You Hate Daniel and Jack If You Dare Use an Endearment For Them Because They Hate It Everyone into SG Knows it attitude... know what I mean? We're all entitled to our own opinion, and our own preferences and I think we're all civil enough to express them without killing each other --like we saw in this thread for instance-- so why should a bunch of fans dictate what we're supposed to like or dislike in a fandom?

[slb44.livejournal.com]

What I was trying to say, perhaps poorly, due to the late hour, was that I didn't think Jack would use the same term of endearment he'd used for his wife, for Daniel. And yes, that's just an opinion.

[castalie.livejournal.com]

No, no, I got that, you expressed yourself correctly- I just don't agree lol

And of course it's just our opinions *g*