Latest car wreck at AG
Sep. 28th, 2004 12:48 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
castalieNewest wank at AG - or maybe it's just a discussion, sometimes you can't tell the difference *g* Though hey, to be fair, I don't think anyone started to be uncivil or anything? Anyway, I wrote a little post about how I didn't even see the point of that new wankodiscussion last night but deleted it because I like to try and avoid The Stupid as a rule, but okay I'm not 100% there yet and I can't not mention it exactly lol
It's just that I still don't see the point of the whole thing. Some readers are talking about how they like to be surprised and how they dislike warnings because it spoil them, and I'm like yeah so that's exactly why the Zero post and the spoiler space put before the warnings are there in the first place - for people who don't want to be spoiled at all. They don't want to read the warnings? No problem, they can skip it without even worrying about stumbling into them by accident. The spoilers space is there for them. Still, people who do want to be warned about things like, you know, rape/non-con, torture or violence - just to name a few - should have the right to, and here again, the Zero post was there for them too.
So my opinion on this Warnings Withheld option everyone is raving about? Won't change anything for the readers who don't want to be spoiled because they already have the choice to skip the warnings, but it'll certainly change everything for those who do want to read them, because they won't have that choice now. Knowing there were warnings in the first place but that they were withheld won't tell them if they're going to read a rape fic for instance - and I don't think it's fair to them.
And you can't even say I'm biased since finding out that a story deals with non-con is actually a nice surprise for me, so that won't be a problem for this Dark Mouse - but people who don't want to/can't read rape fics should have the right to avoid it altogether. That being said, I try to avoid DeathFic as a rule, so this Warnings Withheld thing wouldn't sit well for me in those cases. But CD is usually less frequent that the other warnings I mentioned, so I would be among the lucky ones.
Now, apparently writers are also talking about how those warnings put a damp on their creative process since they can't surprise/shock their readers like they sometimes intended to. And I see their point, I do - still it doesn't change anything to me. A reader who doesn't want to be surprised or shocked shouldn't be. I mean, there are enough people out there who love nothing more than receive the equivalent of an electric shock when they read a fic - the Zero post at AG was already perfect for them since it gave them the opportunity to be shocked by skipping any kind of warnings and start a fic totally ignorant of its content. Now, why deny those who can't stand that little shock the right to chose? Writers can't control their readers nor their readers' way of approaching a fic.
Here again, I can't really be accused of being biased either since I'm also a fanfic writer. By putting warnings, I don't infantilise my readers, I don't think they're too stupid to hit the backbutton if they realise what they're reading isn't for them, but I respect the readers who just refuse to read BDSM, rape, violence and so forth and so on.
This Warnings v No-Warnings seem to be a recurring/end theme anyway, so I guess it's not the last time we hear about it?
And why am I talking about it here instead of there btw? There are enough people contributing to the mini-wank live - LJ can be a back-up thing. Discuss it without discussing it. When a discussion is running in circle, there's not a lot you can add to it, methinks. I did vote though, as if it was going to change anything *shrug*
On a different note, I will write my![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
sentinelsecrets fic today, I will *determined look*
Oh and France won 74 medals at the paralympics - it's apparently less than what they hoped for, but hey 74 medals, man! *cheers*
Notice how I didn't mention Lost even once? *frowns* Oops, I just did! Oh well, next time.
It's just that I still don't see the point of the whole thing. Some readers are talking about how they like to be surprised and how they dislike warnings because it spoil them, and I'm like yeah so that's exactly why the Zero post and the spoiler space put before the warnings are there in the first place - for people who don't want to be spoiled at all. They don't want to read the warnings? No problem, they can skip it without even worrying about stumbling into them by accident. The spoilers space is there for them. Still, people who do want to be warned about things like, you know, rape/non-con, torture or violence - just to name a few - should have the right to, and here again, the Zero post was there for them too.
So my opinion on this Warnings Withheld option everyone is raving about? Won't change anything for the readers who don't want to be spoiled because they already have the choice to skip the warnings, but it'll certainly change everything for those who do want to read them, because they won't have that choice now. Knowing there were warnings in the first place but that they were withheld won't tell them if they're going to read a rape fic for instance - and I don't think it's fair to them.
And you can't even say I'm biased since finding out that a story deals with non-con is actually a nice surprise for me, so that won't be a problem for this Dark Mouse - but people who don't want to/can't read rape fics should have the right to avoid it altogether. That being said, I try to avoid DeathFic as a rule, so this Warnings Withheld thing wouldn't sit well for me in those cases. But CD is usually less frequent that the other warnings I mentioned, so I would be among the lucky ones.
Now, apparently writers are also talking about how those warnings put a damp on their creative process since they can't surprise/shock their readers like they sometimes intended to. And I see their point, I do - still it doesn't change anything to me. A reader who doesn't want to be surprised or shocked shouldn't be. I mean, there are enough people out there who love nothing more than receive the equivalent of an electric shock when they read a fic - the Zero post at AG was already perfect for them since it gave them the opportunity to be shocked by skipping any kind of warnings and start a fic totally ignorant of its content. Now, why deny those who can't stand that little shock the right to chose? Writers can't control their readers nor their readers' way of approaching a fic.
Here again, I can't really be accused of being biased either since I'm also a fanfic writer. By putting warnings, I don't infantilise my readers, I don't think they're too stupid to hit the backbutton if they realise what they're reading isn't for them, but I respect the readers who just refuse to read BDSM, rape, violence and so forth and so on.
This Warnings v No-Warnings seem to be a recurring/end theme anyway, so I guess it's not the last time we hear about it?
And why am I talking about it here instead of there btw? There are enough people contributing to the mini-wank live - LJ can be a back-up thing. Discuss it without discussing it. When a discussion is running in circle, there's not a lot you can add to it, methinks. I did vote though, as if it was going to change anything *shrug*
On a different note, I will write my
sentinelsecrets fic today, I will *determined look*Oh and France won 74 medals at the paralympics - it's apparently less than what they hoped for, but hey 74 medals, man! *cheers*
Notice how I didn't mention Lost even once? *frowns* Oops, I just did! Oh well, next time.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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Date: 2004-09-28 04:06 am (UTC)... better not read the warnings withheld drabble I posted in LJ this morning, then. *shifty eyes*
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Date: 2004-09-28 04:10 am (UTC)You know, I understand how putting a CD warning can really ruin the whole purpose of a story and how a writer would truly dislike that particular warning - but I can't help it, I have problems with CD. Like everyone else, I have my reasons, this year even more than usual. But I see the writer's point - then again, I appreciate that writers do see mine *g*
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Date: 2004-09-28 04:17 am (UTC)It's a toughie. That's my conclusion. Although if there is a zero-post already, I suppose it's not such a toughie... *shrug* I'm not on list, and LJ is different anyhow, so there you are.
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Date: 2004-09-28 04:24 am (UTC)Not that I would automatically agree with that --concerning the fics only, I mean, not anything else-- but I would still accept it.
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Date: 2004-09-28 04:48 am (UTC)1. If you're on a mailing list, you should obey the rules of said list. If you don't like the rules, get off-list, or petition for change w/o just violating them.
2. Warnings are courteous everywhere.
3. If you're going to fail to warn for the biggies: BDSM, non-con, death, make a note that there may be squicky things ahead that you aren't warning for.
4. If you are really, really squicked by something, you skip the fics that have warnings withheld. You miss out on a little bit of fic, maybe, but you're happier in the end.
5. If only I could follow my own advice, imagine the whold Jossverse fandom labeled "SPOILER WARNINGS WITHHELD" and stay out of it till I'm done watching...
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Date: 2004-09-28 04:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-09-28 04:56 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-09-28 09:33 am (UTC)"In this story Chris will die..." Big news! He dies in the show too.
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Date: 2004-09-28 09:41 am (UTC)Truth is, not everyone wants to get shocked by suddenly finding out the story is using a major squick to them - they should be able to choose whether they want to proceed or not with the fic. Lots of readers want to enter a story spoiler free and they can do it without the slightest problem, so why not think of the other portion of the readers?
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Date: 2004-09-28 09:51 am (UTC)If you put a warning saying "Mr X dies here", how can readers be spoiler free?"
And what is more, there are so many squicks -fisting, dying, torturing, raping, but also just angst or stuff like that, or people who can't stand their characters being feminized... Why should I take *this squick* into consideration and not *that one*; both are humanly respectable!
And the fact is that I do think about my readers; hey I write for them too; but I won't post anything like "and in the middle of this story Chris gets shot down so if you can't stand it you'd better not read it."
I'm OK with any warning, but not death or violent warning; it kills all the interest and the writing.
But then I'm not on AG. I'm in Oz, baby; and other rules apply. ;)
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Date: 2004-09-28 10:12 am (UTC)I know I usually regard warnings in my own special way since I'm looking for stories that deal with dark subjects - they're not warnings as much as incentive to read the story to me lol
You put a warning saying "Mr X dies here", how can readers be spoiler free?
They can still remain spoiler free because the warnings are --I'm talking about AG here, of course-- a) included on a Zero Post, ie a post before the actual story and b) even put behind a spoilers space. That's the rules of the ML. This way, people who want to know about the warnings --and admittedly the common warnings are CD, BDSM, DD, non-con, torture-- just have to scroll down a bit, and those who don't want to read them will be able to skip them altogether without worrying about stumbling into them by accident.
As for what should be considered a warnings, that would be the subject of a whole new 'wank', granted lol I guess they use the warnings that are acknowledged on most archives. I could argue that fics containing telepathic beagles should also need a warning, but let's go with the flow and accept the 'regular' ones...
To tell the truth, that's the first ML I see going kaboom because of this subject, so it was never really something I thought about *shrug*
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Date: 2004-09-28 10:18 am (UTC)ooops. That was a hard one.
But, but, but...
Date: 2004-09-28 02:05 pm (UTC)But what about the people who are reading for pure escapism? Who just want an entertaining story about their favorite characters -- and suddenly get hit in the eye by something that completely turns their stomach? It happened to me on a list -- we were having a discussion about a point in one episode, and one member held a vastly different view from the other members. So, she wrote a little fic to illustrate her point. With no warnings (and the story was going well up till that point) she demonstrated a senseless, brutal, totally squick-making character death. (And I have a strong stomach.) I still -- and I've watched that ep about 10 or 12 times since then -- have trouble getting that image out of my head.
I think people approach original fic differently from the way they approach fanfic. With original fic, if there is character death or rape, the reader is not so "connected" to those characters; she has not known them for a long time. When reading fanfic, the reader has known those characters possibly for years; she loves them and is therefore much more upset when bad things happen.
Also with original fic, I can choose my genre. If I read mystery, or historical romance, or most science fiction, I can be pretty sure that there will be no shocking surprises... and I don't *want* those things! Interesting entertainment, yes; squicky gross-outs, no.
Actually, I will read and enjoy CD, BDSM, non-con, etc -- if I'm in the mood and if I'm emotionally prepared. Warnings let me choose the story based how I'm feeling at that time.
In my view, warnings don't "spoil" the story. To say, "Warning: Major Character Death" does not tell us HOW, or when, or why... the author still has to weave her spell and draw us into the story.
I haven't seen the discussion Mouse mentions, but I agree. On a mailing list, there are 0-posts, and people can choose NOT to read them if they want to approach a story "unspoiled". On a website, an author could easily say something like, "This story contains warning-type subject matter. If you want to read the warnings, go here. Otherwise, read at your own risk."
Frankly, if an author tells me, "I'm not going to put any warnings," she's telling me that there IS objectionable material ahead, and I'll avoid that story. But she's not giving me an opportunity to judge if I might want to read the "objectionable material" -- I might quite like it, but I'm not going to take a chance.
And don't forget that warnings might draw people TO the story. There are those who *like* BDSM, or non-con, or CD. They find the warning and they rub their hands in glee, thinking, "Oh, good, this will be fun!" If they see a story with a "No Warning" label, they are not likely to scan down to see if the story hits their favorite kink.
So, really, I consider warnings to be just common courtesy from author to reader. The reader who does NOT want them can avoid them if she chooses, but the reader who DOES want them cannot find them if they're not there.
.
Re: But, but, but...
Date: 2004-09-28 02:08 pm (UTC)And I don't agree about the CD warning; it's really too much of a spoiler to me. But to each fandom its customs, I guess.
There are no 0-post on my Oz ML, either. I don't even know what it looks like.
Re: But, but, but...
Date: 2004-09-28 02:14 pm (UTC)*loves her dark and twisted canon show*
Re: But, but, but...
Date: 2004-09-28 02:15 pm (UTC)"beware non-con sex between Joe and Billy"...
But I can behave if I have to! ;)
Re: But, but, but...
Date: 2004-09-28 02:19 pm (UTC)We do have some great dark and twisted and non-coney canon material now and then, true enough.
That makes a little more sense...
Date: 2004-09-28 07:07 pm (UTC)I was thinking of my fandom, TS. I can see where Oz is so dark that there's no sense in warning for bad things because so much is bad even in canon. But in a 'lighter' fandom, readers have different expectations. Maybe that's the key, as you say - what the customs and expectations of the specific fandom are.
But in another response you say something like, it's senseless to warn "Character X dies on page 132" because it spoils the whole story. True... but there's a big difference between *that* and saying, "Minor Character Death" or "Major Character Death". Heck, if I was inclined to read, I'd be wondering which character, and how, and why, and when - it would heighten my anticipation.
I can't quite see your point - no one suggests that a warning name the character and place and time of death - but I suppose you don't see mine. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.
.
Re: But, but, but...
Date: 2004-09-28 02:12 pm (UTC)Every.single.of.them - thanks for your input *g*
Thank you.
Date: 2004-09-28 07:18 pm (UTC)Thank you. I must admit, I was rather proud of myself. I think I'll put it in my own LJ, with a couple of more points that I thought of. Now ~sigh~ if only I could have such a 'nice way with words' while speaking. I get tongue-tied in person, especially when the subject is important; I'm much better with the written word. Anyway, thanks again for your praise; it's very sweet.
.
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Date: 2004-09-28 04:26 am (UTC)But yeah, I still get your point. It's always a case of getting someone else's point but agreeing with it or not - different opinions and all that *g*
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Date: 2004-09-28 04:11 am (UTC)yeah, you had got me worried for a moment - but it got better toward the end *giggles*
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Date: 2004-09-28 04:28 am (UTC)And Lost Pt 2 - D-1!! Though not necessarily for us since we'll have to wait for the episode to be uploaded. The girl won't automatically upload it right after it aired after all - you might be able to see the link at the same as me.
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Date: 2004-09-28 05:54 am (UTC)I'm cool, I'm fine. *pauses*
no Lost on Fridaaaaaaaay *sobs*
[/silliness]
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Date: 2004-09-28 05:15 am (UTC)The zero post is the perfect compromise, read it if you want, don't read it if you want. That's what it's there for. Why the hell get so upset about it?
Surely the warning withheld tag is the same thing as just skipping the zero post? I understand about warnings, really I do but come on. It's not hard to stay unwarned if you really want to. It's not like the zero post has things like DANIEL IS RAPED THEN KILLED BY JACK in the subject line.
But you're right, this is a topic that goes round and round and is never resolved. Which is why I'll repeat, fandom never learns. There's always someone new to stir things up.
*Puts on stern face*
You will write your sentinelsecrets story or I'll post some TS het and dedicate it to you. Maybe Naomi/Jim! I'll hurt but I'll do it, just see if I won't ;)
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Date: 2004-09-28 08:45 am (UTC)That's why I'm missing the point of the whole thing. Since the Zero post was already there - but I guess it digressed somewhere? Some of the writers are now saying how the warnings put a hindrance to their creativity because they can't surprise people anymore, which is bullshit since people who do want to be surprised just skip the Zero post and are done with it - the people who don't want to won't suddenly accept to go blind just to please the writers - some of them will just skip the stories altogether, talk about 'hindrance' in that case *shrug*
Are you threatening me? Because this isn't coaching but threatening, you realise? You meanie!!
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Date: 2004-09-28 11:12 am (UTC)I was encouraging you! Maybe in a rather brutal manner but still.
Did it work? ;)
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Date: 2004-09-28 11:55 am (UTC)Did it work?
Sorta *cough*
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Date: 2004-09-28 12:28 pm (UTC)Sorta, as in you opened Word at least maybe? *g*
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Date: 2004-09-28 01:11 pm (UTC)And I did start writing the fic - should it be Word related, I'd say I not only opened it but used it, promise lol Thing is, I'm apparently stretching the guideline a bit too much, so I think I need to return to the road so to speak lol
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Date: 2004-09-28 01:53 pm (UTC)I'll let you off this time then ;)
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Date: 2004-09-28 04:17 pm (UTC)One of the other downside of writing fics on papers as opposed to directly on Word? I have no idea if I'm way over the word count or if I'm still well within the limits *sigh* There's no way I'm going to count them by hands, it's making my eyes hurt already! lol
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Date: 2004-09-28 04:34 pm (UTC)That's wonderful news. I can't wait to read it *bounces*
That is a problem with the word count. No doubt you're over though, 1000 words really isn't that much.
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Date: 2004-09-30 03:51 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-09-30 10:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-09-28 07:16 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-09-28 08:48 am (UTC)Only it's not of course, because things aren't ever simple in fandoms lol
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Date: 2004-09-28 10:17 am (UTC)I won't say it there on the list, because I don't want to offend anyone's delicate artiste sensibilities, but when it comes right down to it, weighing an author's wish to protect the "integrity" of their story (which amounts to not having to be considerate of anyone but themselves) against a reader who has very real issues with certain kinds of fic or very intense squicks, the author's issues DON'T EVEN COMPARE. Seriously, what seems more important? Someone who suffered a recent death in the family being able to protect his or her self from added trauma, or an author being able to keep their story's surprise intact for everyone, regardless of whether or not they want to be surprised?
That's what it comes down to for me. I understand where those certain authors are coming from, but it means absolutely nothing to me in the face of where many of the readers are coming from.
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Date: 2004-09-28 10:43 am (UTC)In one of the comment above, Ari mentioned 'common courtesy' and when it comes down to it, I think this is a great summary of the whole thing.
And like I said in Nicci's LJ, my problem with the whole wank is how it seems some people want to just dismiss a good part of the readers' wishes. Just because Person A thinks everyone should feel surprised/shocked at the end of a story doesn't mean it's a valid point - I'm not saying it's a bad point either, but it is dismissing others' wishes anyway, and like you said, lots of readers have their own personal reasons not to want to read DeathFics or Rapefics or Whatever - and even if they didn't, they shouldn't have to justify their tastes, and I really don't think it's fair to 'make' them read/start reading those kind of stories - I know I don't want to read deathfics on a good day and this year? I just have even more reasons, and I think it's within my right as a reader to be able to pick the stories I'll read - I don't really see the problem.
Sure, the writers have a right to dislike putting warnings on their work because they sometimes ruin the impact of their stories, and yes their comments are valid but at the same time I can't help thinking that it's not exactly their right to force all the readers to be shocked if they don't want to - why do they assume that everyone should get squicked when reading their fics? Some readers really need to know the warnings before trying a fic, I think they should have the choice to do so. Withholding warnings won't bring writers more readers to 'be surprised' by reading their fics, on the contrary.
We always say that as long as you post your story on-line, it becomes your reader's property - if said reader refuses to start the story ignorant of what will happen inside, shouldn't be their right?
I know by using the word 'right', I'm sounding melodramatic, but you know what I mean *g* I guess I could say 'prerogative' *g*
That's why I think the Zero post+Warnings Spoiler Space is the best compromise - everyone should be satisfied with it since it suits everyone moods. You want to know the warnings? Scroll down a bit. You don't want to? Skip it. But of course, people aren't ever satisfied about anything *shrug*
So yes, I basically rephrased what you just said, but you know what I mean lol
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Date: 2004-09-28 11:34 am (UTC)That right there accounts for half of my ire over this situation. Ignoring, for a second, what the warning withheld option actually means for a reader, it just plains irks me that writers care more about their precious shock value than my potential issues. Who the hell cares if they gave me nightmares for weeks, so long as their darling story remained unspoiled as they intended it? Good grief.
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Date: 2004-09-29 08:27 am (UTC)But I don't have any warnings in my stories; I know that some people suffer death of people they love, I did too. Still it has nothing to do with what you read, which isn't real. I still have a clear view of what is life and what is fiction.
The last time I lost someone, I have to say that I really stopped reading fanfiction because nothing held any interest to me anymore. I didn't give a damn for people dying in fics, see.
Anyway I don't write in TS, and if ever I did, considering the opinion of the people who read TS stories I guess I would put some warnings.
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Date: 2004-09-29 08:56 am (UTC)So the zero post was perfect for anyone. You thought warnings were spoilers and you couldn't care less about them? It was okay, you just had to skip them without the slightest risk of being spoiled against your will. On the other hand, you wanted to know if the story dealt with CD, BDSM, rape etc? Well you could do that, too.
Both parties had an option. Now, what they're discussing is actually withdrawing one of those options. It won't change anything for the ones who never read the warnings, it won't change anything at all for them, but the others? Will lose their options to choose.
So what if those anti-warnings people don't care about being shocked or if they revel in it or if they don't mind finding a CD/DD/blah blah - that's not the point here exactly, because if they liked all the above, they were already allowed to keep the mystery. Now though, they're basically forcing others onto their state of mind... which is, to me, unfair and selfish.
Sure, I don't mind finding a rape/non-con/BDSM/DD/violence story, I actually hope to find one, so I wouldn't need those warnings, but just because I don't mind doesn't mean anyone else should feel the same. We all approach stories in a different way, those who are squicked by InsertKindofWarnings shouldn't have to read a story not knowing what will be inside just because some other readers/writers think it's okay for them.
And again, that problem never happened in any of my other fandoms nor did it ever happen in my other MLs, so maybe the problem is purely inherent that AG *g*
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Date: 2004-09-29 09:59 am (UTC)I think it needs some explanations and it would be too long at the beginning of the fic.
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Date: 2004-09-30 03:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-09-28 12:15 pm (UTC)A spoiler would be something more detailed and probably unnecessary, like er, I dunno, phone sex?
Proper warnings are indespensible, I think. It's not something we should work to do away with. Squicks and such are real, you know?
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Date: 2004-09-28 01:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-09-28 02:32 pm (UTC)