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Jan. 21st, 2004 12:46 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
castalieTypical. I just changed my status on Y!M into 'Busy slaving away studying exams', and here I am, updating my LJ! *shakes head*
To my defense, I'll say that Book #2 that I was supposed to start today is actually finished. I read it last night. So there.
Actually, I was just pondering about something - I read an SG fic this morning, and I'd like to know what is the deal with Jack calling Daniel 'Danny'? I just don't understand. I actually read a fic the other day that warned the readers about Jack using the nickname 'Danny' in the story - I mean, it was on the damn warning! Imagine the thing? Warning : non-con, violence, and Jack calls Daniel 'Danny' once or twice. Heed the warnings if that's not your thing. This is pretty incredible, IMHO.
Americans use nicknames all the time, don't they, like on TV that is? I mean, more often that not, in a show you'll find that the nickname rule applies. And yes, like![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
babycakesin told me, it's not an 'always happens' kind of rule. So, very often, it's not James, it's Jim, and when it's not Jim, it's Jimmy. Jonathan becomes John which becomes Johnny, or it just turns into Jack. Richard becomes Rick or even Dick (I mean, it might be old fashioned now, I don't know, but still). William often turns into Bill, which in turn becomes Billy, and so on and so forth.
So what is the deal with Jack, of all people, calling Daniel 'Danny' from time to time, I wonder? I mean, we're talking about Jack here, the man who gives the cutest and/or most improbable nicknames to his favorite archaeologist all the time! Do 'spacemonkey' and 'Plant Boy' ring a bell? Plus, let's say I'm talking from a slash POV here- so now, Jack can't even use that name for his lover? I don't think Jack uses all those nicknames in a patronizing way, it's just something he does, and it's damn cute. So what's the deal? In particular to the man he loves *glassy eyes at the mention of Jack loving Daniel*
*pulls herself together* Where was I? Oh yeah - plus, if I remember correctly, Jack did call Daniel 'Danny' at least once canon. And usually, what has been said/done at least once in an episode becomes game as far as everyone is concerned in the fandom. So I really would want to know why some people react so strongly at the mere mention of the infamous nickname. I mean, I remember reading about someone who actually stopped reading when she encountered it.
Sometimes - yeah, know what? Sometimes, I feel like people are underestimating Daniel somehow - and I know it's not true, but it feels that way to me sometimes. They can't stand the thought of him being bottom because it would make him 'weak'- yeah, right! And some don't want him to be called 'Danny' because it's demeaning and childish. Well, I for one don't mind at all - in case you didn't know already lol I never thought Daniel being bottom would make him weak, and I'm pretty stunned that people would even think that, and I don't think him being called Danny makes him a child. Nicknames are used to show affection, and really, if someone attracts affection, it's Daniel, IMHO. And I'm not saying this because I'm crazy about the guy - or maybe a bit, but let's pretend it doesn't count, for conversation's sake, all right? lol
Anyway, just wanted to talk about that little thing *cough* Now, if you're one of those Jack-calling-Danny haters, I wouldn't mind hearing what you think of the thing. Obviously we won't agree, but that's not the point and it's okay- I'm just curious *g*
To my defense, I'll say that Book #2 that I was supposed to start today is actually finished. I read it last night. So there.
Actually, I was just pondering about something - I read an SG fic this morning, and I'd like to know what is the deal with Jack calling Daniel 'Danny'? I just don't understand. I actually read a fic the other day that warned the readers about Jack using the nickname 'Danny' in the story - I mean, it was on the damn warning! Imagine the thing? Warning : non-con, violence, and Jack calls Daniel 'Danny' once or twice. Heed the warnings if that's not your thing. This is pretty incredible, IMHO.
Americans use nicknames all the time, don't they, like on TV that is? I mean, more often that not, in a show you'll find that the nickname rule applies. And yes, like
babycakesin told me, it's not an 'always happens' kind of rule. So, very often, it's not James, it's Jim, and when it's not Jim, it's Jimmy. Jonathan becomes John which becomes Johnny, or it just turns into Jack. Richard becomes Rick or even Dick (I mean, it might be old fashioned now, I don't know, but still). William often turns into Bill, which in turn becomes Billy, and so on and so forth. So what is the deal with Jack, of all people, calling Daniel 'Danny' from time to time, I wonder? I mean, we're talking about Jack here, the man who gives the cutest and/or most improbable nicknames to his favorite archaeologist all the time! Do 'spacemonkey' and 'Plant Boy' ring a bell? Plus, let's say I'm talking from a slash POV here- so now, Jack can't even use that name for his lover? I don't think Jack uses all those nicknames in a patronizing way, it's just something he does, and it's damn cute. So what's the deal? In particular to the man he loves *glassy eyes at the mention of Jack loving Daniel*
*pulls herself together* Where was I? Oh yeah - plus, if I remember correctly, Jack did call Daniel 'Danny' at least once canon. And usually, what has been said/done at least once in an episode becomes game as far as everyone is concerned in the fandom. So I really would want to know why some people react so strongly at the mere mention of the infamous nickname. I mean, I remember reading about someone who actually stopped reading when she encountered it.
Sometimes - yeah, know what? Sometimes, I feel like people are underestimating Daniel somehow - and I know it's not true, but it feels that way to me sometimes. They can't stand the thought of him being bottom because it would make him 'weak'- yeah, right! And some don't want him to be called 'Danny' because it's demeaning and childish. Well, I for one don't mind at all - in case you didn't know already lol I never thought Daniel being bottom would make him weak, and I'm pretty stunned that people would even think that, and I don't think him being called Danny makes him a child. Nicknames are used to show affection, and really, if someone attracts affection, it's Daniel, IMHO. And I'm not saying this because I'm crazy about the guy - or maybe a bit, but let's pretend it doesn't count, for conversation's sake, all right? lol
Anyway, just wanted to talk about that little thing *cough* Now, if you're one of those Jack-calling-Danny haters, I wouldn't mind hearing what you think of the thing. Obviously we won't agree, but that's not the point and it's okay- I'm just curious *g*
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Date: 2004-01-21 04:22 am (UTC)as for the nickname things, I don't agree: not all americans use nicknames! (and some US *hate* to be nicknamed, it's not just me) if it's canon, of course, nickname rule applies, but don't generalize: not everyone is into nicknames. It's pretty much like Pepsi v. Coke: each has preferences I guess
lol I can't imagine them calling Daniel "Danny" in the French dubbing - "Danny, que pensez-vous de cela?" lol
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Date: 2004-01-21 04:34 am (UTC)Sure, I should have mentioned, that in a lot of *shows*, the nickname rule applies. Maybe I'll edit the thing lol But I guess it's also a way to make us more 'intimate' with the characters...
Oh man, yeah, I can see that 'Danny, ne touchez pas à ça' ou 'Danny, qu'avez-vous encore fait'? lol Oh c'est atroce!
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Date: 2004-01-21 04:38 am (UTC)I think I'm getting back into LJ business quite nicely actually ^^ commenting and spamming - I'm even answering a meme! me happy to be back on CL (did I mention that I missed you? cause I really did *huggles*)
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Date: 2004-01-21 04:43 am (UTC)And did you tell me you missed me? Once or twice *eg* But it's a good thing cos I sure did too!
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Date: 2004-01-21 04:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-01-21 04:52 am (UTC)Oh yeah, you noticed about that, uh? Well, what can I say, I really tried to go back to my books, but I can't seem to focus somehow. So my books and I are on a break!
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Date: 2004-01-21 04:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-01-21 04:22 am (UTC)And I really think so many people like 'Danny' because it's cutesy. C'mon, it is baby-like. I can see Daniel telling Jack to shut up calling him that stupid name, his parents called him that when he was two. And that would have to have been early in the series.
But Daniel is the cute little archaeologist, so hey, let's call him 'Danny'. Even though the canon just isn't there to support it anymore.
I dunno. Fanon just doesn't float my boat, especially where Daniel's concerned. I much prefer canon Daniel, who is imperfect and selfish and a little spiteful. And who doesn't, in my head, let anyone call him 'Danny'. *g*
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Date: 2004-01-21 04:42 am (UTC)That's exactly why I like the 'Danny' thing, I think. I can't really see Jack calls Daniel 'baby' or 'babe', also, if he does it at least 'once' in a fic, I like it, so to me, Danny is the next best thing. It's cute and intimate. I could see Daniel tell Jack to shut up at first, because he would consider it's baby-like as well- but somehow, I could see him accept the thing after some coaching *eg*
I don't want to hear Jack call Daniel 'Danny' all the time, like I know a certain writer does it, but somehow, I miss it when/if Jack doesn't use it. I really need it.
Can't see Sam or George or Heaven forbid Teal'c uses it- only Jack... so yes, for me, it's definitely a Jack-thing, and it sure works *g*
Does it sorta turn you off or something though? If you read it in a fic? Or do you just think, 'what the hell, I'm just going to pretend Jack never said that or that Daniel told him to shut up'?
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Date: 2004-01-21 05:00 am (UTC)Depends on the story. If it's a good story, I pretend it never happened. But if it's a stupid story or the author seems like an idiot, then I think, "God, you're a fanon whore as well as an idiot!" and hit delete like the elitist snob I am. *g*
Cool post, btw!
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Date: 2004-01-21 05:23 am (UTC)Cool post, btw!
Thanks. And thanks for answering, of course *g*
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Date: 2004-01-21 04:52 am (UTC)Oh boy did I miss LJ! *huggles Mouse*
*huggles LJ*
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Date: 2004-01-21 05:06 am (UTC)Now, missy, why am I not reading your *last* post? Where is the brand new update from my Babycakes? Where?!
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Date: 2004-01-21 12:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-01-21 12:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-01-21 12:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-01-21 12:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-01-21 04:53 am (UTC)IMO, if there's one thing guys don't do -and especially guys like Jack or Jim- it's talking about what they feel or don't feel or would like to feel or are surprised to feel. Geez, they're men of action, not men of words.
There's a lot of introspection in those fics. Well I'm probably one of the only ones but introspection bores me. Like, see, actions speak louder.
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Date: 2004-01-21 05:20 am (UTC)I prefer introspection vs action. But somehow, I would say it has to do with the fact that I can't really write about action. I'm all for introspection and feelings- or the lack therefore.
It always surprises me how Jim and Jack are portrayed differently with their lovers whereas they're pretty much the same hardass and silent type of men. On one hand, you have Jim which is known (fanon, of course) to use all the pet names of the creation when he talks to Blair, and on the other, you have Jack, who even has difficulties (because of the writers/readers) just calling his lover 'Danny'.
I love comparing fandoms, did you guess? lol
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Date: 2004-01-21 05:30 am (UTC)Anyway, I didn't notice that your characters were so... talkative. They think a lot, about what they feel, or what the other one thinks, but they don't spend 20 pages rambling about it in pointless dialogues. I'll try to find you some fic where it's obvious. It's a reason why there are a lot of fics I don't read. They could -and should, IMO, be much more shorter if the author didn't indulge him(her)self in those endless discussions -because I think that they enjoy the misunderstanding and verbal fight, so they take a lot of pleasure writing it -not sure we take a lot of pleasure reading it.
I don't think, actually, that Jack would *ever* say anything to Daniel about what he's feeling -he never did with Sam, and we were very near a love affair, in Canon. He'll keep it to himself, and die with it if he has to, not because he's afraid of Daniel's reaction, but because his sense of duty is too strong. So, apart from being *drunk* or caught in the act with another guy, or kissed by Daniel... I don't see many other solutions.
Mmmmm? Was I a bit long?
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Date: 2004-01-21 07:13 am (UTC)And after thinking of what you said, I realized that yes, maybe I didn't described my characters as 'talkative' after all- which revelation sorta pleased me, if you want to know the truth lol They do think a lot, though, that's right. In my head, when I write my stories, it feels like they're speaking to me, so that's why I thought they were talkative after all *g*
I liked your description of Jack. Not because that's the one I want to read all the time, but because it's an interesting characterization as well, and because it usually gives great angst stories. Know what? It makes me think of those 'exercices de style'- imagine a little scene with different characterization of Jack, different ways of reacting to a certain even, ie realiztion he loves Daniel, and how he would tell/not tell him *g* That would be fun *g*
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Date: 2004-01-21 07:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-01-21 05:32 am (UTC)Sometimes, when I read a new fic (meaning a fic by an author that I haven't read before), I do the Danny count. More than three or four "Danny"'s in a 50 k story and you are out.
I don't think the "Danny" itself is belittling him in any way. It's just what fanon has made of it. And let's face it: Jack has called Daniel "Danny" twice in the whole series. (I think it was twice, could have been once). But he calls him Daniel every single day. So why, I ask myself, do writers insist that in slash, when J and D get together, they suddenly call each other cute little nick names?
"My" Jack, the Jack that I love and want to read about, loves the man Daniel. He doesn't love the abused little child Daniel (no evidence of that in canon), the cute little archeologist (we are long past this), or the weak civilian (excuse me?). But that's what "Danny" turns out to be in those stories.
If there was just a little more evidence of Jack using nicknames for Daniel on the show, I might be able to agree to Danny. But there isn't. It's always Daniel. For me, making Jack call Daniel "Danny", is out of character.
But nicknames are one of my pet peeves anyway. When I writer starts giving the characters her own nicknames, I stop reading. There is nothing worse. It happens a lot in Sentinel, when Bliar suddenly calls Jim "James", something that never happened on the show. But there are fics like that in every fandom. There is no faster way to make a story completely out of character than using false nicknames.
(end of rant)
The other things, about Daniel being a bottom and therefore being weak was never a issue for me. I like fic that doesn't make an issue of who's the bottom. I like Daniel as a pushy bottom. I love Jack as a bottom. Actually, I just want them to have hot sweaty sex, I don't care who dose what to whom.
The thing isn't that Daniel is weak because he is a bottom, but that he is made a bottom because he is weak, if you know what I mean. and that's when I stop reading.
Just my humble opinion, of course. :-)
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Date: 2004-01-21 07:26 am (UTC)It's okay lol I'll survive. It seems you're not the only one either, so I'm getting used to you all popping up into my comments *g*
I think I understand. So you really dislike the whole co-notation hidden behind the Danny instead of just disliking it for its sake, right? Not that it's demeaning itself, but it's more that people who want to write about childlike!Daniel or weak!Daniel or cutiecutie!Daniel always uses that nickname to sorta legitimate their view of the guy? Cos in that case, I totally see where you're coming from *g*
To tell the truth though, when I hear you say that you don't really like Jack calling Daniel because it's not canon enough (I said he called him once, you said twice, one thing is sure, it wasn't more than that, right?), it makes me smile, cos technically, the whole slash business isn't canon itself, so overall... we're all writing about OOCs. I mean, if we decide to look at it that way. Seriously though, I can see why you don't like it. You want more canon!Jack and canon!Daniel, and since Jack doesn't use it, well, you can't accept it fanon. I'm all right that lol
Like you saw, I'm a pet names!lover. And that's something I really like when reading TS- although, some writers go over the top, IMO. I mean, I love hearing Jim calls Blair 'babe' here and there, but all the time, even *I* have my limits- also, the 'sweethearts' and 'honeys' are definitely too much. Here again, that's just my opinion, cos hey, I know some readers who never get enough of those. We all have our needs, right? *g*
I'm definitely glad to see I'm not the only one thinking bottom does not equal weak. Sometimes that assumption really annoys me. I mean, what? So following the same thought, does that mean a woman is actually *weak* because technically she's the bottom? Coming from women, I always thought that this idea was pretty ironical, really!
The thing isn't that Daniel is weak because he is a bottom, but that he is made a bottom because he is weak, if you know what I mean. and that's when I stop reading.
I exactly see what you're saying, yes. And I'd stop reading as well. Daniel is not weak. How could he,
anyway?
Just my humble opinion, of course. :-)
Don't worry, I asked to hear about your opinions, I'm glad you answered *g* Comparing our views of a show/fandom is pretty interesting, IMHO.
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Date: 2004-01-21 08:29 am (UTC)Right. I wonder why it took me so long to say this, when you can sum it up in one simple sentence. :-)
we're all writing about OOCs. I mean, if we decide to look at it that way.
Oh, sensitive topic! Not to me personally, but I think I know some people who would get vrey angry about that statement.
Yes, to a point you are right. But fanfic is about things that aren't in the show, and arguing like this would mean that all fanfic could be out of character, because it isn't fanon and therefore not real.
But when I read fanfic, I want to read about the characters on screen. I know that I always read the author's interpretation of the characters, but I want this interpretation to stay so close to what happens in the show, that I can still recognize the characters. And too many Dannys mean that I can't recognize "my"Jack anymore. Though I can understand if people have a different view of Jack, and maybe "their" Jack is the person who calls Daniel "Danny" all the time.
I mean, I love hearing Jim calls Blair 'babe' here and there, but all the time, even *I* have my limits- also, the 'sweethearts' and 'honeys' are definitely too much.
I love "babe". I definitely have a thing for "babe". I also love Jack calling Daniel "babe", or the other way around. :-) I can justify this by saying that this isn't out of character, because obviously they would never get into a "babe" situation on screen, so it's not against canon. it just isn't mentioned. ;-)
Jim and Blair are awfully cute when they call each other petnames, and I can live with that, because that's just the way they are. And as long as they use "normal" petnames, that's allright, but when the writer makes up her own creations, it just makes me laugh.
So I guess I'm alright with petnames as long as they aren't some weird creation by the author. I know that I read a TS story once that had Jim and Blair using only petnames with each other, something really ridiculous that had nothingto do with their real names, but I can't remember what it was.
And let's face it: "Chief" is not something that can be screamed in ecstacy very well. *g*
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Date: 2004-01-21 08:44 am (UTC)Well, that's a first! *I* was able to describe something in a short and concise way? Go me! lol
I think people, slashers or shippers, are just a tad too sensitive sometimes *g* I never have a problem with loathing something *I* like, but I sure have a problem with those same people implying I'm wrong in liking what I do, you know?
Anyway, back to the subject at hand. I know saying that technically J/D isn't canon is a little daring, but *technically*... and after all, *I* am a slasher, so on can't blame me for saying horrible things because I don't know what I'm talking about, right? lol
And yeah 'babe' is one of my favorite pet names. I melt when I hear Jim call Blair that, and I sure wished Jack called Daniel this way too, but it just doesn't happen a lot *sigh* Well, Jim is here anyway, and we can always count on him for our 'babe' quota! *g*
And a story which had Jim and Blair talking to each user using *only* pet names? I see how *that* wouldn't work, yeah.
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Date: 2004-01-21 09:01 am (UTC)true, Jack doesn't call Daniel "babe" very often, probably because he is afraid that Daniel will hit him, now that he's all worked out. Someone should tell him that Daniel really likes to be called babe. *g*
Jim on the other hand is also someone who calls Blair "honey" when they have breakfast together. Jim is a lot more cheesy than Jack in these things, but he is also adorable, so I can forgive him. :-)
Hmm, now I miss Jim and Blair. I think I'll have to watch some Sentinel tonight. :-)
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Date: 2004-01-21 09:04 am (UTC)That's Jim for us. Hardass and badass, and so very cheesy when his Blair is concerned! lol I love him to death *g*
Hmm, now I miss Jim and Blair. I think I'll have to watch some Sentinel tonight. :-)
Amen to that! I think I'm going to watch one of my TS tapes. How I wish the DVDs have been released! Sometimes I can just *see* the box set in front of me, ya know? In French and English (I really love Jim's French voice, and Blair's one is pretty cute too), and imagine all the bloopers! I mean, sure, I have them on tape, but a DVD high quality? That would be *great*! *sigh*
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Date: 2004-01-21 09:14 am (UTC)I have them on tape as well, but the quality isn't that great because someone copied them for me. and most of them have swedish subtitles.
But it's Jim and Blair! Who cares about subtitles? :-)
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Date: 2004-01-21 09:21 am (UTC)And my tapes are copies as well, but they don't have subtitles *g* I'm pretty sure I have some French episodes as well as a matter of fact- will have to go hunting *g*
But subtitles or not, it's Jim and Blair all the way- woo!
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Date: 2004-01-21 07:35 am (UTC)He calls him "Danny" twice.
Sincerely,
Canon
The evidence is abundantly clear that Jack thinks of Daniel as Daniel--not as "my Danny" or "Danny-boy" or any of the other nicknames. Yes, he might occassionally call him Danny, but not on a regular basis. Once in a fic? Maybe. More than that causes me to twitch.
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Date: 2004-01-21 07:46 am (UTC)The evidence is abundantly clear that Jack thinks of Daniel as Daniel, his friend, his co-worker-- not as "my lover" or "my partner".
So, canon, as far as fandom is concerned isn't really a reliable source, is it? lol
I mean, I'm a slasher, so obviously I don't really take those facts into account, right? *g* That's why I don't think Jack wouldn't ever call Daniel 'Danny' just based on canon. Cos if we refer to that, well... I'm afraid slash is totally out of the question lol
And uh, that would be *bad*! *shudder*
And I agree, reading 'Danny' at each and ever sentence would get on my nerves too. I just need Jack to call him that from time to time, and preferably when they're alone, like this, everything is safe on the 'work' front *g*
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Date: 2004-01-21 10:40 am (UTC)Well then what is a reliable source? I understand that fic is all extra-canonical and that slash is as well (much as I hate to admit it. *g*) but I don't think that means we can throw canon out the window and say it's not a good indicator of what would happen if Jack and Daniel were fucking each other.
I don't think there's any basis in canon for extrapolating that Jack would call Daniel "Danny" on anything like a regular basis--or that Daniel would appreciate it. I agree with those who point to "Gamekeeper" as evidence. "She called me Danny, just like I was a little kid." At least as of S2, Daniel associates that nickname with his childhood. I find it something of a stretch to believe he would associate it with intimacy.
But to each hir own. *shrug*
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Date: 2004-01-21 10:58 am (UTC)Actually, and based on the same principle, there's no good indicator that Jack would never call Daniel that if they were lovers. We see them interact with each other as *friends* through the whole show, everything outside this limit, ie everything that puts them together, can't entirely be based on *that* interaction. And since extrapolating means we have to take facts and change them, or even make them up, it's entirely possible that this Danny thing is definitely happening.
I mean, canon, there's no indicator that Jack wouldn't call him Danny inside the bedroom so to speak, or just between the two of them- like there's no indicator that he doesn't.
It's not based on canon, just on preference, and how we choose to view it.
I find it something of a stretch to believe he would associate it with intimacy.
Really? Well, obviously I don't *g*
But to each hir own.
Amen to that *shrugs as well*
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Date: 2004-01-21 08:30 am (UTC)I think I love you. Seriously.
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Date: 2004-01-21 10:30 am (UTC)*uses geek!icon with pride*
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Date: 2004-01-21 11:44 am (UTC)Or he makes up for it in bed! :-)
Hmm, numbers, beautiful!
(but I only have an anti-geek icon *g*)
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Date: 2004-01-21 11:52 am (UTC)Sam calls Jack "sir" and "Colonel" hundreds and hundreds of times, because she basically affixes a "sir" to every sentence she addresses to him. It's standard military etiquette, I suppose.
Jack calls people by name a lot. (Random fact: pre-Fair Game, he calls Sam "Captain" almost exclusively. After Fair Game, it changes not to "Major" but to "Carter.") It's part of his leadership style, and relates to his touchy-feely-ness.
Daniel isn't really good with people, and while he likes people, he doesn't always interact very well with them.
I really need to rewatch again--there are lots of things I'd want to keep track of that I didn't think of the first time through. :)
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Date: 2004-01-21 11:01 am (UTC)That said, I am entirely against the feminization/weakening of Daniel, and sometimes 'Danny' is used in that sense. Or when it's outrageously used endlessly, or worst, in situations the show has shown us Jack does not use 'Danny' (in everyday's life at the SGC, or mission, especially after season 2).
If the story is good and in character, a few 'Danny' does not hurt, since a good characterization implies 'Danny' will be used in a coherent manner.
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Date: 2004-01-21 01:57 pm (UTC)*high fives
That said, I am entirely against the feminization/weakening of Daniel, and sometimes 'Danny' is used in that sense.
And I second that. Daniel is no weakling, thank you very much.
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Date: 2004-01-29 11:46 am (UTC)Personally, it doesn't bother me, as long as it's well used. I mean, many men *do* give affectionate names to their male lover, so why not them? It would not make them look like sissys if they did. Do we think men are sissys when they call their 'female' lover with small affectionate names?